Where were you guys born and did you have similar or different childhoods? If not similar, what would you say was the major difference in your experiences?
Spider and I were both born and raised in Southern California. I was the prototypical introverted outcast, while Spider, on the other hand, was a happy, outgoing child, and full of energy. His father nicknamed him “Spider” because he was always all over the place, climbing the walls.
So you had completely different experiences. In some relationships, different upbringings can hurt a relationship, but in your case—it all works. There are Right-Wing believers that like to think that something “went terribly wrong” when a child was raised for them to become “gay”. Obviously, that way of thinking is archaic and incorrect! At what age did you two realize you were gay? How did this realization affect/change your lives?
I don't think that a person gets up one day and suddenly realizes he or she is gay…or straight…or bisexual. It's something that happens gradually over a period of time as you become sexually aware. Having said that, Spider was fully aware that he was attracted to both sexes by the time he was in middle school. As for myself, I remember feeling attracted to male relatives and male teachers as a little boy. Spider had a hard time coping with his feelings of attraction to other males and he tried to repress those feelings up until he met me. I, on the other hand, never felt any guilt or shame about my attraction towards other males. In fact, I felt like it somehow made me special.
I find it really interesting that although you were withdrawn you embraced who you were very easily, whereas Spider took a little more time—even though he was more outgoing. It seems that the old saying “opposites attract” seems to be true in your case! Where and when did you guys meet? Did you know right away you were meant for each other?
We met in October of 1971 in a little gay bar called The Stable in Sunset Beach (we were both underage and carried fake IDs). I truly believe it was love at first sight for both of us and by December we were living together as a couple. Now that I look back, I realize what a blessing it was for me to meet my lifelong soul mate at the tender age of 18.
You both had tremendous courage to be a couple at so young of an age. Things certainly were viewed differently then than they are now. What was it like being an openly gay couple in the ‘70s? Name one big change since then for the good—one not so good.
It was very difficult living as an openly gay couple back in the early 1970s. I mean, one has to keep in mind that in those days engaging in homosexuality was against the law in California and gay people were regarded as mentally ill by most physicians. We had no role models, very little family support (in fact, my family disowned me and I haven't seen them since) and even our “accepting” heterosexual friends often made us feel like we were some sort of curiosity. I think the worst thing we endured back in those early years was the afternoon we came home and found a box in front of our apartment door with the words “faggots” scrawled on the lid, and inside we discovered the body of our sweet little cat, Ginkmo, with a rope around his neck. Poor little Ginkmo. He was only seven months old. How could someone hate us so much that they would do that to an innocent animal? We buried him in the garden behind our apartment building, and two weeks later we moved out. I don't know if I can name just one big change for the good since those days, because so much good has happened over the years. I mean, when Spider and I first started living together, the gay rights movement was still in its infancy, and the idea of domestic partnership rights, gay marriage, gay people adopting children, openly gay performers, positive gay characters in films and TV programs was unthinkable. Today, young gay people are growing up in a world in which there is so much more acceptance of who they are and they don't have to carry around a lot of baggage that we carried around in our youth. If I had to name one thing that is worse, it would be that with all of the acceptance and visibility gay people have gained in today's society, gay people have also become a bigger target for the haters in our society. For example, time and time again, we see blatant homophobia being used as an election tool by some politicians.
 That is very true. As far as politics goes, however, I don't think that will ever change. There will always be opposing views on issues (abortion rights, stem cell research, etc.). But at least some have finally addressed AIDS and are working to support finding a cure. AIDS changed the lives of everyone in the early ‘80s and their relationships. How did this horrible disease affect you and Spider?
Spider and I lost several friends to AIDS in the late 1980s and early 1990s, including my best friend (Marc O). It was devastating. In fact, one of the reasons we left California in 1994 was to escape all the ghosts and bad memories; however we came to realize the only way to temper bad memories is to focus on the good ones.
You and Spider don't seem to be overtly political w/gay and lesbian rights. Do you feel the pressure to be political? How has that changed since the ‘70s? How do you feel about gay marriage?
There are many ways to be activists. True, you won't see Spider and I marching in a gay rights parade, but I think the fact that we been living as an openly gay couple for all the world to see for the past 35 years is a political statement in and of itself. As artists, we have been very political in our music--we founded an all-gay Los Angeles rock band (Red Wedding) years before other gay performers came out of the closet. As to gay marriage, the truth is that we never cared about getting married, but now that people are making such a fuss about it, that is, telling us that we shouldn't be able to get married, we want to! Of course, it would be a simple, tasteful ceremony (nothing big or fancy). Bottom line is, we want to have the same basic rights and protections as any heterosexual couple: hospital visitation rights, inheritance rights, etc.
The things a lot of people take for granted. The one “right” no one can take from the two of you is your connection and love for each other. Name one thing that you both see in the other one that inspires you.
Kindness, mutual respect and creativity. I guess that's three things!
And, when you aren't being inspired to create your incredible music there must be other things that you both enjoy. What kinds of things are “guilty pleasures” in your lives? (i.e. favorite foods, goofy recreation, collections…hobbies, etc.)
We are both vegetarians and tend to be healthy eaters, but our “guilty” foods would be potato chips and popcorn. In regards to collections….the question is, what don't we collect! We have large collections of mint records (including colored vinyl, everything from vintage exotica and jazz albums to film scores to punk rock), children's vintage lunchboxes and toys, vintage western / cowboy restaurant china, vintage Fiesta china, vintage Arizona pieces (campy souvenirs, cactus lamps, desert-themed oil paintings, Indian crafts, wagon-wheel furniture), brass Hindu statues and Moroccan henna lamps, new and vintage tiki mugs, vintage post cards, vintage 3-D Viewmaster reels ...to name a few. You see, when we first moved to Arizona I worked in an antiques and collectible store and I ended up collecting way more stuff than I ever sold! As far as hobbies, Spider and I build a lot of things with wood (from furniture to picture frames to birdhouses…..our birdhouses are all one-of-a-kind, very detailed, almost like miniature dollhouses, and we don't use glue….only tiny, tiny nails).
Having similar interests must help keep the two of you connected as well. Besides your personal connection, your music connection is incredible. I understand, Michael, that you weren't always involved in the music. When and why did that change?
Yes, for several years Spider was the performer in the family while I sat on the sidelines (although we would occasionally compose songs together). I didn't start performing until 1978 when Spider joined a punk rock band (Tracers) and soon after I was asked to join as a backup singer. Not long after that we left Tracers and founded our own punk rock band (Hey Taxi) with me as the lead singer. Funny thing is, I was never a very gifted singer. I saw myself more as a performance artist and a storyteller. These days I'm playing keyboards and no longer singing, but I'll reiterate that I'm not a gifted musician. I play all my parts with only one or two fingers! Spider is the gifted musician. My strong point is my imagination (I'm the one who comes up with all the themes and concepts and arrangements… and I do most of the mixing).
Being a gifted musician in the traditional sense may not be your forte; however, you are very gifted musically in how you hear and put things together when create a piece. Your style is very unique and wonderful as well. If you and Spider had to name only 1 major musical influence on your life, who/what would it be?
We are a product of so many influences that we couldn't possibly pick just one. Spider's influences would include Hendrix, Gabor Szabo, Jeff Beck, Les Paul, The Ventures, Kenny Burrell, Vanilla Fudge, Mick Ronson, Big Brother & the Holding Company, to name a few. My influences include Bernard Herrmann, early Bowie, early Streisand, Jefferson Airplane, Kate Bush, Laura Nyro, Gustav Holst, Elmer Bernstein, Martin Denny, Les Baxter, Jerome Moross, Ravel and many, many more. As you can see, together Spider and I have all the bases covered (from rock to exotica to jazz to film score to classical to vocalist). About the only music genre we haven't explored is disco because we both hate it. Yes, there are actually gay people who don't like disco music!
Your style of music has certainly changed since the beginning of your music careers. Explain why you think your style has changed so much over the years. (Please share a bit about your early day bands—and style—and now).
Oh, this is gonna be hard to answer because we've explored so many venues of music over the years (from psychedelic rock to glam rock to punk rock to soundscapes). One thing about Spider and I is that we've always gone against the grain, always experimenting with combining different musical genres. For example, when we were playing in punk rock, we were incorporating Broadway musicals into the mix (something that a lot of our fans didn't even realize)! If our music has changed over time, I suppose it is due in large part to our getting older. Spider and I are not young people filled with angst anymore. We're pretty mellow these days.
 However you seem to be able to tap into angst when you need to! Your music certainly isn't all mellow and quiet! When you come up with a concept for an album now, do you do that together? What comes first, the music or the concept?
All the concepts come from me. I first think of the concept and all of the track titles, then we begin the process of composing the music. In other words, the concept and the track titles totally dictate the music.
That is just so incredible to me. How do you and Spider “piece together” your music on a “working day”? Who writes—creates, or do you just let it flow?
As mentioned above, I come up with the concepts and I also do the initial composing (that is, I come up with the framework for the piece). I usually start with experimenting with drum samples, then I add some melodic synth strings. Next Spider steps in and adds bass and rhythm guitars (defining and structuring the piece). Then I begin the process of layering various instrumentation (more strings, flutes, oboes, harps, horns, choir vocals, etc.). Then Spider adds lead guitar and oftentimes, "noise guitars." Then I layer even more instrumentation. Then we mix (and re-mix and re-mix and re-mix) it all together.
Somehow all that typical sounding recording “work” brings forth something special. There is a mystique about you both that comes forth in your music, although, I understand that to your friends you are both just really down to earth, regular guys. Where does that mystical magic come from in your music? Where do you draw that out from?
Actually I think that I tend to be over-the-top and in the clouds, whereas Spider is very down-to-earth and even keeled, and it is Spider's easy-going personality that helps keep me in check. In other words, we balance each other out. As to the mystique in our music, I think a lot of that comes from me. Again, I'm very much of a “in the clouds” kind of person, someone who has always been rather obsessed with dreams and fantasies about exotic and mysterious places.
Whatever brings that out of you, it does work magically. I have to ask about Spider—how did he learn to play guitar like he does? Over the years, reviewers have often referred to him as a “guitar god” and honestly, I have to agree. The way his beautiful melodies collide with your complex soundscapes is truly nothing short of perfection.
Spider picked up a guitar and taught himself to play at the age of ten, and he was playing in a working band when he was twelve. He had no training, it just came naturally to him, like a duck to water. I think it has something to do with the fact that, even at a young age, Spider has always been a very sensual person and the guitar is a very sensual instrument. His guitar is definitely a way for him to express his sensuality. What has always amazed me about Spider is that he is left-handed, but he taught himself to play right-handed. Spider also has perfect pitch--he's never had to rely on devices to tune his guitar. Who knows where true artistic talent comes from? I think it's just something a person is born with. I believe that all of us are born with special gifts, but most people don't take the time to recognize these gifts and they never truly utilize them.
You both certainly have amazing gifts. I am so glad you both took the time to find them in yourselves and in each other! What are you most proud of in your music history? Least?
Hmmmmm. That's a bit hard to answer. I suppose I'm most proud of the fact, when I think about how insecure I am and that I was never a very gifted singer, that I actually had the nerve to get up in front of audiences and sing once upon a time (something that I would never had done on my own had I not had Spider to encourage me). Having said that, neither Spider nor I dwell too much on our past musical endeavors. The truth is, we don't really even enjoy listening to our own CDs once they are released. I guess the thing I'm least proud of in our music is how self-absorbed I can be from time to time. It's the nature of the beast.
How has your perception of the music “business” changed in the last 30 years?
I'm an artist and hate talking about the business aspect of music. I will say that the Internet has made it possible for artists to connect with labels they never would've been able to in the past, and by the same token, gives those labels an audience they never would have had.
And the Web has become one great collection of LP art if an artist chooses to use the Web in that way. Speaking of which, you and Spider have a new website that is really artistically beautiful. Some changes today can really bring out a different creative side than was able to be seen in the past! It is my pleasure to be able to know artists like you and Spider who aren't like any other artists I heard and who continue to evolve as the years move on. Your lives are vastly different from when you started in terms of just about everything—from where you live to the type of music you create. What was the turning point musically and professionally for you guys?
When we started working together as a music duo in our first band (Hey Taxi). Keep in mind that for the first eight years we were together, Spider played in bands while I sat on the sidelines.
Along with those early changes you continue to change things now to keep things fresh. Why are you changing your name from “Smoke & Mirrors” to “Michael and Spider”?
Because we decided as soundscape artists that it was time for us to step out from behind the curtain. Our next CD release will be entitled “Iridescent Garden.” We're working on the music right now (sort of new exotica, alternative and ambient). William Lewis has already created incredible artwork for the project.
I know I am certainly looking forward to hearing your latest work! Is it also true that that a CD collection of Red Wedding songs is going to be released in 2007?
Maybe.
Any last thoughts?
Yes, I've probably contradicted myself over and over again in this interview! Nothing stays permanent or appears black and white in my mind for more than a few minutes!
That is quite alright, Michael! Your openness and inspiring words will stay permanent in ours—as well as your music!
www.michaelandspider.com
Interview by Jen Lush |
